All Party Parliamentary Group on Mental Health

18th March 2006

MEETING TO DISCUSS INCAPACITY BENEFIT REFORM - PART 2

Rt Hon John Hutton MP, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions

The Secretary of State began by saying that the current benefit system isn’t working, both for people going onto benefits as well as for those who want to get off them. There is an assumption in the system that people on incapacity benefit (IB) will never work again and they will face a lifetime of poverty. 1million out of the 2.5million people claiming IB are claiming for mental health problems and they are the least successful group at getting back into work.

The Green Paper looked at how to solve this problem through the rollout of the Pathways pilots. Pathways pilots were staged in parts of the country with high IB levels such as Derby where they had success in helping claimants’ confidence through services including cognitive behavioural therapy. Many of these services had to be bought in from the private sector. Mental health organisations have been offered a seat at the table to influence the reforms. A technical group has been formed to look at redesigning the Personal Capability Assessment (PCA) and the voluntary sector will be involved. Voluntary sector organisations will also be able to get involved in delivering many of the services under the new proposals.

The proposals are not designed to be punitive as it is recognised that the current faults lie with the system rather than with the claimants. Employers also need to do more to tackle discrimination in their recruitment of people and how they deal with people who develop problems in work.

Q&A

Lynne Jones MP commented that the Government had mentioned perverse incentives in the past and implied that people were staying on benefits when they could be working. She was pleased that the Secretary of State was sounding more positive now.

Alan Barton (Citizens Advice) highlighted that their report What the Doctor Ordered showed numerous cases of people with mental health problems facing difficulties with IB including problems dealing with the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) which is very process driven and inflexible. Mr Barton recommended that the DWP recruit a mental health champion to address these problems. His colleague Vicky Pearlman added that though there was a lot of positive change in the Green Paper, the message about sanctions is a real concern and may frighten vulnerable people.

The Secretary of State responded agreeing that the DWP is bureaucratic and can be frustrating but he working to change this and will look into appointing a mental health champion. He also said that there are some people on IB who shouldn’t be, 7,000 fraudulent cases are caught each year and he aims to rid the system of this but people must recognise that it is a problem. The Secretary of State also stated that the disability lobby shouldn’t have a problem with conditionality/sanctions if applied fairly and that it isn’t appropriate for people to be on IB for years with no contact from the DWP. He noted that sanctions are needed to give Jobcentre Plus staff power.

John Wheatley asked how the quality of decision-making on the PCA could be improved to reduce the number of claimants who have to go to appeal. The Secretary of State reported that DWP was looking into this and investigating whether other professionals such as Community Psychiatric Nurses could be involved in the assessment. Caroline Hawkings asked whether the DWP was working with the Disability Rights Commission on a disability impact assessment of the new proposals and Emily Frith asked whether this would be part of the Regulatory Impact Assessment (RIA). The Secretary of State stated that they are looking to analyse how the proposals will affect the lives of disabled people but this wouldn’t form part of the RIA.

Sue Royston asked whether the PCA could be suspended for claimants once they are working with Jobcentre staff so that they don’t have to go through the stress of another PCA whilst they are cooperating. The Secretary of State noted that there should be enough flexibility in the system to do this though regular check ups are an important part of the system.

Jane Harris asked whether the timescale for the review of the PCA was long enough for the study to be completed properly. She also mentioned that employer discrimination was a big problem and that the DWP should look at successful schemes run in Scotland and New Zealand. Ms Harris also mentioned that many people with severe mental illness have trouble using the phone and need access to paper forms which should be more readily available. She also noted that occupational health could be separated from recruitment as in America. The Secretary of State said he would look into these issues. If the PCA review wasn’t completed by September then the timescale would be extended and it will be tested before being rolled out. The DWP is working with other government departments to tackle employer discrimination against people with disabilities. He noted that the DRC was not keen on having a heavy legal approach to tackling employer discrimination but wanted to raise awareness.

Lynne Jones MP stated that some of the DWP’s anti-fraud advertisements were frightening for claimants and could give the impression that claimants could not leave the house or play sport without fear of being accused of fraud. The Secretary of State hadn’t seen the adverts but noted that the issue of fraud was a serious one and that cases of people working whilst claiming are an issue. However he recognised that many people are now being prescribed exercise for depression by their GP and shouldn’t be afraid of being seen at the gym.

Kim Maynard noted that many people on with mental health problems are living in poverty and that often they come to the Citizens Advise Bureau unaware of their entitlements to benefits. She suggested that Jobcentre Plus be more proactive about telling people what benefits they should be receiving. The Secretary of State said he would look into this.

Lynne Jones MP thanked the Secretary of State for attending and wished him well in his role.

Members:

Lynne Jones MP

Observers:

Jane Harris – Rethink

Caroline Hawkings – Turning Point

Emily Frith – Turning Point

Fiona McKinstrie – Young Minds

Kelly Bond – Revolving Doors Agency

Sue Royston – Ripon CAB

Hannah Rutter – Mencap

Andy Bell – Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health